I'm actually quite enamored with the "butt shot" in this drawing because I think it's always important to include some of the horse's markings... that and it's just so unique! Lovely composition and style, for sure. Best of luck to you in the competition!

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If reality can change dreams, why can't dreams change reality?

Oh wowwww! This is so good, I love the concept and ideas gone into it! Hehehe it's another painted dun! ...Or is it a painted grulla?
But he's a gorgeous animal anyway, and as I said before about your artworks, the anatomy is just so well done-- well done!

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_{"It's never too late to realise in life what's important. To fight for it."}

Grulla and Dun are one in the same! LOL A lot of people get that confused, so don't feel bad. Grulla is just a term for a Black horse with the Dun gene. The dun gene actually dilutes the black base coat, leaving darker points. Not as extream as roans, but intresting. They also dilute chestnuts. On bays you don't see much dilution, and on Cream based horses you usually don't see any coat dilution as well.

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Profesional Equine Art & Free Line Art

Ahh yes I thought so, but I thought there were different shades between say a moderate grey dun to say an almost black dun, being a grulla
Ah yes so by the dun diluting the cream gene, do you mean for example ~Silverglass's Alonso (Perlino_{I think} dun) who's Sire is a bay dun/grullo and who's Dam is a straight Cremello?
I ask that because you said that cream based horses you usually don't see any coat dilution and they're all meant to be genetically correct.

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_{"It's never too late to realise in life what's important. To fight for it."}

Ah alright, you mean Your leaving the 19 out of her name so it's sending me to some one just named silverglass.

Alonso is what we call a composite color. It means he carries two or more dilution genes. He actually carries a double copy of the Cream gene (Ccr) on a Bay base coat, with the Dun gene (Dn+). However in his case, the Dun gene doesn't dilute the base coat, because it's already been diluted by the cream gene. Additionally his markings are to dark for the color, but I leave that to artist interpretation.

Here are some examples on what I meant about the Dun gene diluting the base coat of (some) horses. Now this doesn't apply to everyone, but it does apply to most chestnuts, and all blacks. Bays and Horses that carry at LEAST one copy of the Cream gene seem to be excluded from the diluting effects of the Dun gene.

Black = [link]
Black + Dun (Grulla) = [link]
*Notice the lighter body color of the Grulla horse is lighter then the points of the horse? The points of the horse would be lower legs and head.

Chestnut = [link]
Chestnut + Dun (Red Dun) = [link]
*The same applies here, the red base coat has been diluted slightly.

Bay = [link]
Bay + Dun (Zebra Dun) = [link]
*Other then the difference in shade between these two bays, the red color of the bay dun has not been diluted like the chestnut

Buckskin (Bay + Cream) = [link]
Bay + Cream + Dun (Dun Skin) = [link]
*See how the only difference here is that one has dun markings, and one dose not. This is because the dilution effect of the Dun gene is masked by the Dilution effect of the Cream gene.

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Profesional Equine Art & Free Line Art

Ahhh yes I see, thankyou so much, I can see how the dun effects only in the specific ways now, the dilution effects the main body (or torso) minus the legs, adds a dorsal stripe and puts bars on the legs as well as shoulder markings.
How I've seen it is sort of more like a template, kind of thing. Like you have the template is clear on the legs, face, mane and tail, but has a white colouring on the tips of the tail and so on. Then you have a horse, say, black, when you put the template over it the white from the template makes it a grullo, not a black. Then again if you were to take it and put it against the chestnut horse, it would lighten the chestnut's main body, put the shoulder/leg/mane+tail "frosting" in, but not touch the face and legs!
_{Hope I didn't confuse you!}
Oh, by the way, your link for the Red Dun didn't work for me, but I know what you mean. It would (according to my little template theory) be a lightenned chestnut base colour without the legs and head being touched, a little "frosting" on the mane and tail (I think it's called guard hairs?) with an added dorsal stripe and tips to the ears.

When you say that the dilution effect of the dun gene is masked by the dilution effect of the creme gene, does this mean that there would be absolutley NO effect of the dun gene on say a buckskin at all? Because like all other things with biology, everything has it's exceptions.

Sorry if I am annoying you at all, I did go to your journal and I've been reading up on the brindle gene -or rather, the lack of knowledge of it.

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_{"It's never too late to realise in life what's important. To fight for it."}

LOL there are always going to be exceptions to the rules. Some times when you have dun and one cream gene on a bay horse you end up getting that people in American call a "silver (or silvery) buckskin". And it's a pale buckskin with a bright silver matalic sheen to it. All these dilution genes can interact differently depending on the intensity. Also the shade of bast coat (black, bay, or chestnut) will effect the color and intensity of some dilution genes.

For instances a Sooty Chestnut x Cremello horse can procude a Chocolate (sooty) Palomino, A standard cheery red chestnut x Cremello can procuce a golden palomino, and a Light chestnut horse x cremello can procude a very pale palomino.

When it comes to all genetics, there's never really an absolutley. In some cases there are, in a more general sense: Ex. Chestnut x Cremello will always produce Palomino. Yes. But if you want to get specific, what happens if that chestnut or cremello is masking recessive genes that aren't shown, but have to be tested for?

So to answer your original question, no. The dilution effect of the dun gene, CAN have an effect on horses expressing the dilution effect of the cream gene. However because the cream gene is more strongly expressed (in physical appearance), some times it's harder to see the dun dilution effect. Because of that, it's more common to see the dun dilution effect on solid colored horses instead of cream based horses.

Did I mak things clear, or did I go in circles? Sorry, running on no sleep.

NOTE: and just to clairfy incase you were lost (which I dont think you were), or if anyone else that reads this gets lost. I'm not talking about the dun markings on the points of the horse. I'm taking about the body of the horse, and how the Dun gene will dilute the base coat slightly, and leave the points alone. Also on that note, not all dun horses will have all signs of being dun. Some times their black points are so intense that you wont see leg baring, or it will be very faint. And some horses will actually have a dorsal stripe, and not be considered a dun. That's why some times, we have to look at parent lineage, or even genetic testing to know for sure. As horses age, and as the seasons change, so does their color.

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Profesional Equine Art & Free Line Art

Ah I see I got it, I got it Thankyou! I know what it's like running on minimal sleep buti t's all good, I gotcha
Thanks!

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_{"It's never too late to realise in life what's important. To fight for it."}